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LORDFLUFFY

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A relative absolutist, principled miscreant, fervent moderate and opinionated idealist.
Articles Posted: 77  Links Seeded: 213
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Open Carry at Town Hall Meetings: Killing Two Arguments with One Rifle

Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
us-news, care, healthcare, protest, debate, liberty, blood, gun, stupidity, tree, second, town, hall, amendment, argument, 2nd, rifle, tyrant, open-carry, ar-15, milita, patritot
By LordFluffy
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The pictures are chilling: A man stands outside of a Town Hall meeting, dressed well and not appearing to be unbalanced, but across his back is an AR-15 rifle, a civilian version of the M4 assault rifle used by our military. At another, a man carries a pistol on his thigh and a sign stating that it is time to "water the tree of liberty", a reference to Jefferson's quote regarding the blood of patriots and tyrants. At another meeting, a pistol drops out of a holster onto the floor and people question if it was a mistake or a threat.

No shots are fired, no weapons are ever actually drawn, but the debate on health care has gotten interrupted to discuss these armed individuals in such close proximity to our elected officials. People are shocked to see such a display of arms. They are even more shocked to find out that they are within their rights and commit no crime by bringing their guns.

The second amendment is a vital part of our democracy. We are a nation built on the principle of self-reliance and the ability to provide for, defend and govern ourselves. Arms and the legal ability to possess them are integral symbols and means to enable us to live up to those principles. America is a gun toting culture and for the sort of people we strive to be the right to keep and bear arms needs to never be repealed.

But with power, as the comic books tell us, comes responsibility. So much more so with the power to take a life. Guns should only be produced when something vital is at stake, when life or liberty will suffer and be lost if force is not brought to bear.

Which is why I wish to every deity I hold holy that these jerks would knock it off.

That they have the right to protest and have the right to be armed while doing it cannot be disputed. But they are so very much not helping their case, either in the debate about health care or in their defense of the 2nd amendment. It makes them look crazy at best, like thugs at worst.

People who have arms on them frequently are certainly more likely to be comfortable in the presence of others carrying them, but those who do not certainly aren't. To them, it comes across as a threat. Enough public outcry will draw unwanted attention to the pro-gun crowd and with that attention might come additional legislation with their need to display arms in non-life threatening situations used as proof that open carry may raise more pulses than it saves lives.

Also, force is a last resort. You hit someone when there is no room for debate, persuasion or discussion. To pull out a club before talking things over is the sign of a brute or a bully, not someone confident in their capability to engage in meaningful discussion. Strap a gun to your thigh and no matter how eloquent your speech, you're still going to look like you're ready to fight first and talk second most likely because you're incapable of talking well at all.

In theory, I'm more in favor of open carry than I am of concealed carry; it's good to know where the guns are in a room. The main advantage of concealed carry is that it allows one to keep the means to protect one's self on you at all times without distressing those who have no interest in being around guns or weapons of any sort. But when open carry is used as a not-so-subtle threat, it is an abuse of the right not a fair use. It is equivalent to putting your hands around someone's throat, not squeezing, but telling them that you just need to keep your fingers warm.

I applaud those who bear arms responsibly and use them with good judgment. I salute those who would engage in debate with policies they do not agree. I encourage protest. But if you want to be taken seriously as a gun owning citizen or a person concerned for the future of health care, for crying out loud, please leave the firepower at home.

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  • Public Discussion (161)
LordFluffy

You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun than just a kind word. That's a fact. But if you don't really need the gun, then you just kind of look like a paranoid douchebag.

  • 28 votes
#1 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
tracey-602481

Great article. I've been arguing for a while now that with the right to bear arms comes the responsibility to know when to leave your guns at home. I'm only preaching to the choirk, though. Those who are doing it and/or supporting it have no desire to exercise such responsibility. It's like people who never exercise their right to remain silent because they're too wrapped up in their right to speak. One person I was debating said they're "protesting with arms", and yet refused to acknowledge anything threatening about that. Yeah, right. Just standing there, guns by your side, just because you can. How childish.

  • 19 votes
#1.1 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
David Boddie

I agree with you on this, and I reiterate (from other seeds on this issue): "Just because you CAN do something, does not mean that you SHOULD."

  • 14 votes
#1.2 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:20 PM EDT
Ludwigc

It’s a good article. I agree completely that if you’re carrying a gun you need to be held to a higher standard of behavior.

I have no problem though with people open carrying, including at town hall meetings. I have no sympathy for those who feel threatened just because they choose to be unarmed and rely on society’s services for protection.

But, ya, you’d better act responsibility if you’re going to carry. As Roosevelt said: “walk softly, but carry a big stick.”

  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:20 PM EDT
Arad

Also, force is a last resort. You hit someone when there is no room for debate, persuasion or discussion. To pull out a club before talking things over is the sign of a brute or a bully, not someone confident in their capability to engage in meaningful discussion. Strap a gun to your thigh and no matter how eloquent your speech, you're still going to look like you're ready to fight first and talk second most likely because you're incapable of talking well at all.

Exactly.

  • 11 votes
#1.4 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
Tal KramerExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

Why is MSNBC doing racially biased reporting and fear mongering about whites against blacks. The rally they broadcast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKQJ4-N7LI) and talk about the possibility of some white nut shooting the President is the same one where blacks carried the same weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4NSfiz7D1Q). I don't support Open Carry, its scary and intimidating but MSNBC / "The Media" creates these unnecessary racial tensions just as they did during the presidential campaign.

Obama can and should be judged on what he accomplishes, not on his race. So far I think he has lived up to his rhetoric but we have no one to blame but ourselves because "The Media" was so enamored with him that they didn't dig into the facts as they've done with every other candidate for the last 20-years and "we" fell for the rhetoric.

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:46 PM EDT
DTansy

Strangely, the BIGGEST mention from ANY of these meetings appears
to be, NOT that anyone was assaulted, but that "ordinary citizens"
had their own weapons, and were well within their own RIGHTS TO DO
SO. I fail to understand how that, (carrying guns) IS news?

The NEWS should be, since American citizens have been showing up at
"Town-Hall meetings ARMED, No MEDIA WHORES have "commented" on the
LACK of any violence wherever our armed citizens have turned up.

No complaints of SEIU thugs, NO attacks, NO VIOLENCE.

Is THAT not "news"? Or just not what they wanted to hear?

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:11 PM EDT
KFPH

I have no sympathy for those who feel threatened just because they choose to be unarmed and rely on society’s services for protection.

Absolutely ridiculous. I believe in and support the 2nd ammendment, only because it is a part of our constitution, I personally see no reason to own a gun, I choose to be unarmed, and rely on my intelligence and instinct for protection. For those that choose to own a gun, be responsible

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:37 PM EDT
NativeOregonian

It's not about 2nd Amendment rights, it's about intimidation. Spin some lies, get called on them. Disrupt meetings and get told to shut up. Kick it up a notch and show them your gun. Except it just makes them look crazy.

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:41 PM EDT
SW Missouri Mule

Or just put the gun out there for everyone to see and no one will mess with you. To me it is the one with the gun who is the bully and the coward.

  • 9 votes
#1.9 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:04 AM EDT
Sebbydad

Is there any doubt that the guns were on display with the intent to intimidate? The folks at the arizona event were a pre-arranged publicity stunt by a militia whose members have been arrested and convicted in connection with casing federal buildings for attack. Is not using the threat of violence to silence dissent, and forward your political agenda not textbook terrorism?

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:42 AM EDT
Joseph.

Is not using the threat of violence to silence dissent, and forward your political agenda not textbook terrorism?

Let's not call our fellow citizens terrorists. They're just... misunderstood. Why would brandishing a firearm be considered a "scare tactic"? It's in good taste to bring a loaded weapon to many different kinds of functions and events. Take war for example. Or possibly even a wedding rehearsal.

Wait...

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:09 AM EDT
Average_Guy

As usual, the point is entirely missed by the left posting here. And your woeful attempts to imply that there is any, repeat any safety concern here is to say the least pathetic. Were I a politician, I would encourage law abiding citizens to carry around me. I'd be much safer. A firearm is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Are you this afraid of a hammer? Cars kill 10's of thousands more each year. Where is your outrage that someone had a car within a block of the President? Why do you not quake with fear for your life when you see a car? Chances are massively higher that the car driver is paying a lot less attention behind the wheel than the law abiding gun owner is.

  • 1 vote
#1.12 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:44 AM EDT
Stone5150

Is not using the threat of violence to silence dissent, and forward your political agenda not textbook terrorism?

It is precisely terrorism.

You just can't call them terrorists, unless they are Muslim or are at least Middle Eastern looking. =o/

terrorism (n) the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

  • 8 votes
#1.13 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:52 AM EDT
Schroedingers Cat

Lord Fluffy.First off you screen name is cool! I agree with everything you said in your opine, power is good but peaceful power is more honorable. Yes open carry is superior to conceal and carry because it would and is much easier to disarm the crazies when their weapons are in plain site. I doubt whether many gun owners would even have the common sense to see your article for the level headed pragmatic sense that it makes, some idiot out there will attempt to find a liberal bias in your words that are not there. Live Long an Prosper.

  • 4 votes
#1.14 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
Maik

The only people bothered by the display of firearms in these situations are people who aren't used to the culture of the states that allow for the carrying of firearms. Most of these owners if not all of them understand, respect, and strictly follow the rules each state has for their firearms.

And what it takes to get a license to carry a firearm is very rigorous. If a person was going to try to shoot someone, why would they bother to go through all of that and pay all that money to get a license legally just do something illegal anyway.

When the man from the New Hampshire rally was questioned by Chris Matthews on Hardball, he made a very good point when he said they only people bothered by him openly carrying were people from outside New Hampshire. The people who were New Hampshire residents already didn't care because they were used to it.

Now...had the man wanted to go inside to the rally itself, he probably would have been instructed to surrender his firearm or he would have just left it in his vehicle because even in open carry states there are rules for where you can carry your firearms (hospitals, banks, etc.).

So in summary, people who don't understand or even take the time to know about carrying a firearm legally need to shut their mouths. Someday, the same person you criticize for carrying a firearm legally could be the person who saves a life because he was carrying a firearm legally.

  • 1 vote
#1.15 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
Stone5150

I know a fair amount about firearms and the laws concerning carrying them. I don't have a problem with people carrying them legally and using them legally. That still doesn't make carrying one for intimidation purposes right.

  • 6 votes
#1.16 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
Maik

Were they carrying them for intimidation or were they just trying to make a display to grab people's attention? I think the latter quite honestly. And with the case of the man in New Hampshire...he probably carries his gun like that everyday. The only people bothered by open carry are people from states that don't have open carry.

  • 1 vote
#1.17 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
Stone5150

The only people bothered by open carry are people from states that don't have open carry.

That is a little too simplistic. It depends a lot on where and when they are being carried.

  • 6 votes
#1.18 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
Sgt C USMC

For me it depends on who is carrying more than what . There are some people who I would have no problem with them carrying whatever they felt like, and then there's some that I'm seriously surprised they figured out how to lace their shoes in the morning.

  • 5 votes
#1.19 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:53 AM EDT
Ludwigc

KFPH

I believe in and support the 2nd ammendment, only because it is a part of our constitution, I personally see no reason to own a gun, I choose to be unarmed, and rely on my intelligence and instinct for protection. For those that choose to own a gun, be responsible

I respect your position that intellectually you feel no reason to have a gun.

I respect your position that “like it or not” that’s America. I wish people on both sides would learn to tolerate more for the sake of freedom.

I disagree on your logic ; intelligent people get taken out by armed idiots all the time. I think firearm ownership is very important, especially for women – it’s a great equalizer. But that’s not the point.

My point is that your choice has no bearing on mine. If you’re comfortable with your decision, that’s great, I just don’t want to hear about you feeling threatened by mine. When I walk into a room of armed people I feel safe, not threatened.

  • 3 votes
#1.20 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:04 PM EDT
SW Missouri Mule

Ludwigc , how would you feel if the room full of people were armed with clubs, pipes, 2x4s, cast iron skillets, hammers, bottle rockets, chain saws?

Ludwigc : When I walk into a room of armed people I feel safe, not threatened.

Why would guns be less threatening? If someone was walking around a public event with a vacuum cleaner flung over his back would I feel threatened? Hell yes! A person in public with an object that is unusual for a public area is to be suspected. And don't give that BS about people of that state being used to it. If the state allows open carry can you carry a shotgun?

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:03 PM EDT
robertlyn-schultz

SWMM,

If the state allows open carry can you carry a shotgun?

I know the question was not directed at me, but the answer is: Yes

:^)

Aloha

  • 2 votes
#1.22 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:24 PM EDT
SW Missouri Mule

Thanks, robertlyn-schultz. So would the shotgun have to be on a strap like a rifle? I have not seen one fitted with a strap but I am not knowledgable about guns although I've shot different traditional firearms.

  • 2 votes
#1.23 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:27 PM EDT
Tex-988483

Yup. You can git real store bought slings fer em these days. Bonnie and Clyde used to cut down the stocks of their BAR's and shots and make a loop strap for em....Not that I suggest that.....

  • 2 votes
#1.24 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:31 PM EDT
robertlyn-schultz

Yes generally, it would have to be slung, as the AR/M-4 carbine was... if someone under-arms has their hands on the grip area - They are then Brandishing the weapon. Now there are a couple of carry methods that conform to good weapons practices without a sling... but it is far better to "sling the thing" and then there is no question of intent.

My Pleasure, I assure you. :^)

  • 2 votes
#1.25 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:33 PM EDT
robertlyn-schultz

Damn Tex, are we on the same wavelength... or what! I am getting used to running in a Pack o'two around the vine. hehehe

  • 1 vote
#1.26 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:36 PM EDT
Reply
Tom88

great article, i agree

  • 10 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:12 AM EDT
Stone5150

Do you think they'd mind if I showed up at Fox News or my Republican Senator's office with my extremely sharp very much real katana strapped on my back and a hand full of shurikens? I would of course have the requisite crazy smug look on my face.

  • 17 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
tracey-602481

Gotta get the buzz cut and make sure you get all red-faced, too.

  • 15 votes
#3.1 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
Stone5150

Should I be slightly sweaty too or would that be a bit too much?

  • 13 votes
#3.2 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:27 PM EDT
Buckeye Voter

That would be too much, but I'd wear a headband.

  • 8 votes
#3.3 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:41 PM EDT
DTansy

Stone,

Those little toys you're talking about are absolutely LEGAL to carry
if you're a card-carrying member of a Dojo.

However, how about some input on the FACT that, since armed CITIZENS
have started showing up at these "events", there has been NO "news"
of violent attacks from ANYONE on ANYONE?

The first few, it was Republicans bussing in "astro-turfers" yap-yap,
SEIU thugs bashing people yap-yap, and NOW, the "news" has focused on
"John Q" carrying WEAPONS, as though they are somehow "wrong" to do
so.

The facts seem clear enough, armed citizens have STOPPED the stupidity
of the Jackasses who thought they'd run "roughshod" through the masses.
Even POLICE presence didn't slow it BEFORE, but now, there isn't even
a MENTION of any violence in the "news".

Care to comment on THAT? Anybody?

  • 3 votes
#3.4 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:28 PM EDT
Redneck Power

I agree whole heartedly!

  • 2 votes
#3.5 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:56 PM EDT
Tom88

interesting

although i don't have a reply for you i would like to hear one as well. If similiar to a police presence the weapon owning citizens are actually promoting order i do not see how that would be a bad thing. Surely a responsible gun owner is not going to gun people down in cold blood in front of countless witnesses and spend the rest of their lives in prison over an argument over health care. Furthermore i would be more worried about guys in bars with guns.

  • 5 votes
#3.6 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:04 PM EDT
SW Missouri Mule

How do we know the guy with the gun is responsible or has not come from the bar? I would rather have it in the open but I would really rather it be carried only when necessary. Walking the streets with a rifle is silly.

  • 5 votes
#3.7 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:00 AM EDT
esrussell

The person you really have to worry about it the thug with the saturday night special tucked into his waistband underneath his shirt who is out looking for a victim. You have nothing to fear by someone carrying a holstered gun in the open or a long gun slung over the shoulder. If carrying guns in the open increased people's risk then we should see lots of shooting at gun shows and NRA conventions... but we don't

  • 2 votes
#3.8 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:16 AM EDT
Stone5150

Those little toys you're talking about

I bet my quiet little toys would be more deadly than your loud little toys, know why? Because I actually know how to use them to their maximum potential. My toys are more complicated to use than *click* BOOM which unfortunately is all most people know about firearms.

I will give that the firearms have quieted down the jackassery somewhat.

  • 6 votes
#3.9 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:58 AM EDT
Schroedingers Cat

Stone5150..You are so correct about the deadliness of the Katana and the ancient weapons. It takes much more skill and COURAGE to use them since you must be in such close proximity to the target. I myself am not to shabby with a long blade of any kind, I once out maneuvered a college kid during a fencing match and ticked him off pretty good, this was about 10 years ago he didn't like some 40 year old getting the better of him being 23 he thought he was faster and more proficient since that was his college sport of choice and I never had a single lesson, I guess it's the genetics in me that took over proving if you don't have the inherent talent no amount of training will make you good.

  • 3 votes
#3.10 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
SW Missouri Mule

esrussell, Have you ever heard of a sniper? They use rifles. They walk by unnoticed to the tower, climb the stairs and start shooting. I shouldn't worry about him because that's a rare and unusual situation.

The person you really have to worry about it the thug with the saturday night special tucked into his waistband underneath his shirt who is out looking for a victim.

I worked airport security screening long ago. You know, the one that makes you miss your flight for no good reason? We were not there to stop the hijacker. We were there to stop the potential hijacker, the guy who just got fired or had one last fight with his ex-wife or too many cups of coffee. The guy who gets on the plane with a gun in his bag then decides to take a different route or kill himself and take the plane down with him. I'm not afraid of the bad guy with the 38 in his pants. I'm afraid of the guy who thinks he has to walk around with a gun just because he can.

  • 4 votes
#3.11 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:26 PM EDT
Reply
mike-342255

I am a big supporter of these rights and agree with the writer 100%.

  • 8 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:13 PM EDT
Tex-988483

Very nice essay there Podna. I think I said more or less the same thing on another article about this. Though I am a Leftneck Hipbilly with a very unsavory blend of political points of view I am a tremendous supporter of the Bill of Rights. I am socially liberal and find absolutely no conflict within that point of view and my support of the 2nd amendment. And all them other ones as well.

That being sed, I think that this sort of attempt at protest is better served in another venue. How about a Million Goobers for the 2nd March? A Million Goobers of Diversity for the 2nd March? A Million Goobers of Diversity, Two Refined Urbanites, A Duck and The Pink Pistols for the 2nd?

I have nothing against open carry nor concealed carry and tend to think that in some sort of hazy right wing nitwittery these folks truly believed that they were somehow making an important statement. Before the right wingers get all medieval on me, I concede that there is indeed much nitwittery on the left. Heck, I might be a case in point fer that one.

Sadly I think the overall effect of such action is to skeer the horses and solidify the anti liberty crowd. I am a shooter and a gun guy, so sue me, and this sort of thing does not scare me. I get the feeling these folks are pretty harmless. But it does frighten and revolt folk that are not used to firearms and are somewhat hoplophobic in nature. Seems to me that we need a rational, mannerly and intellectual dialogue in order to draw them to the dark side. Not skeer tactics.

On a personal level I'm only a rats patooty smarter than a bucket of catfish. Even from that position I am not overwhelmed with the overall intellectual capacity and curiosity of the American Public. Hey, read the Book of 5 Rings. Read The Art of War. Read The Hardy Boys visit the Chamber of Machiavellian Monkey Wrenching. Or just think ahead about how you go about making a statement and what the true outcome might be. And while I'm at it, quit calling a status quo moderate Prez a socialist.

So, for all that ramble all I really wanted to say was Yessiree Bob, nice writing.....

best atcha....

In Art and Solidarity (apologies to Joe Bageant)

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT
ScienceGuy-356641

Just reiterating my take on the matter:

A little common sense goes a long way...

You don't smoke while filling your gas tank, and you don't bring a gun to a volatile political event.

  • 14 votes
Reply#6 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
GA GUY

Great Post!

KUDOS and the up vote!

  • 5 votes
Reply#7 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT
Sgt C USMC

This is one of those issues I'm conflicted with, gun rights. I have no problem with people possessing firearms for self - defense and personal use. I had a very nice Remington model 700 SPS that I used to shoot quarters with at nearly 600 yards for fun (and believe me, that's not an easy task.) and I have a USP 40 for self-defense and a CCWP. ( though if you believe that you're going to fight off a rogue military force with your guns, you really need to see what we do to houses in Iraq where gunmen are suspected to be holed up. I know this isn't Iraq, but there's more than a small number of people thinking the military is going to go against the US people and turn the country into a warzone, and I'm telling you right now, I don't care if you have 1 gun per square foot in your house, it'll be a moot point.)

However, I am completely against people possessing firearms that they have no business owning or lack the knowledge to apply properly. People fork out tons of money for these weapons , but ask them about characteristics about their weapon and its designed applications , and they haven't a clue. Ask them about safety rules and weapons conditions, and again, most of them haven't a clue . (I watched a guy carrying an AR-15 off the shooting range line with a magazine in the lower receiver by the front hand guard, flagging everyone on the line as he walked to the bench to put it away, and that was within 5 minutes of entering the range. The rangemaster and I had a chat about that one) Or people think that they should own an AT-4 because its their constitutional right to do so. Do they know what the backblast radius of an AT-4 is ? Do they know how many revolutions it takes to arm ? The answer is nope, probably not. They're just cool. Great...my neighbor hasn't even showed he's capable of handling a propane bbq without burning his eyebrows off.

So what's the answer ? This is where it gets tough . I'm a huge proponent of firearms training (much like the Marine Corps marksmenship programs, or the police programs) being required prior to a firearms purchase with required requalification every year. (Perhaps task the DHS to this, assign agents in each area)

Proper training increases knowledge which is important, and also increases proficiency (limiting spray and pray and other nonsense) but more importantly it increases confidence in knowing WHEN to utilize your weapon, and when not to. How many times have we seen family members accidentally shoot each other because they mistook them for a burgler ? If the number is 1, that's one too many. This is a skill that ONLY comes with time. training someone to shoot ? That's easy. I can do it in an hour or so. Training someone to know that a gun is not to be used as a deterrant? That takes much longer. Sadly, some people never learn this.

As mentioned above, I have a CCW permit..and sometimes I do carry if the situation warrants it. But my goal is to make sure that no one ever knows about it, and if one day they put me in a position where I'm forced to show them, they will not live to tell about it.

  • 13 votes
#8 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:08 PM EDT
David Boddie

Awesome post! Thanks, Sgt. C!

  • 5 votes
#8.1 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:15 PM EDT
Stone5150

I am all for personal freedoms, but morons with high powered weaponry they know pretty much nothing about is not my idea of freedom, it is more so insanity than anything else. I see absolutely nothing wrong with requiring certified training classes as a prerequisite to owning a gun or rifle.

We don't let people drive vehicles without training and testing, so why should it be too much of a shock to require training and testing to legally own firearms?

  • 7 votes
#8.2 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:17 PM EDT
LordFluffy

I'm with you, Sgt. for the most part. In principle, I'm for private citizens owning sub-machine guns though I recognize that there's bloody little use for a device that spits out 600 rounds per minute of pistol ammo unless you're doing house to house warfare. The hope is that people will self regulate, though with the culture of excess we have people will tend to push everything to the extremes.

The question I wonder is what level of training should the average gun owner receive? Is a regular day at the range per month sufficient or do people need to be going through qualifications every few months? And for that matter, what is reasonable and available to the average citizen?

  • 4 votes
#8.3 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
Stone5150

I say model it after the driver's license program. First cert would be fairly intense, like drivers ed classes, then a re-cert every 4 to 6 years.

I don't foresee too much opposition to the initial certificate, but I am sure the re-cert process would be hard to enforce and would receive a lot of opposition.

  • 7 votes
#8.4 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:37 PM EDT
RCapNY

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but then it needs to be National, but the states don't want to allow it! They showed us that a few weeks ago. As it is right now, I hold 2, soon 3 concealled carry permits/licenses from states. That's fee's to each of those states, some require more 'training' than others.

For the most part gun owners are responsible. Most negatives you hear of are from criminals intending harm, not negligence. I'm uncertain, but there may be a lot more neglegent driving going on, on a daily basis by "legal" vehicle drivers, than 'legal' gun owners.

  • 1 vote
#8.5 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
Sgt C USMC

Stone,

The answer to your question is you don't hold just gunowners responsible, but also the gun dealers. As they were the supplier of said weapon, if their gun owner doesn't abide by the laws, then they AND the gun dealer are held accountable. Its no different than the military, and it works quite well. The gun dealer will make sure that his guy does his re-qual, or he'll blacklist him from the ranges and other shops. The problem then solves itself.

I also think all manufacturers should run their weapons through IFIS BEFORE they ever leave the manufacturing floor, which would make it much more difficult for gunrunners to get 'clean weapons'.

  • 6 votes
#8.6 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:27 PM EDT
Sgt C USMC

LF,

When I think of that, I think back to Fallujah in November 2004. House to house combat, the enemy was using fully automatic AKs and we used M4s/M16s (and most units had SOPS dictating single shot only). You know the final 'score' over those 3 days ? 1200+ of them dead to 39 of us.

The reason is quite simply that we don't 'spray and pray.' We take well aimed shots. Many times they would unload their clip at us , we'd take cover, the bullets would fly everywhere, and then we'd kill them when they had to reload (5-6 seconds later.) Repeat ad nauseum.

The high rate of fire is good for nothing more than target suppression - pinning the target behind cover so your teammates can flank him. They fill the air with a lot of lead, it's true..

But it only takes one well - aimed shot to kill someone.

  • 4 votes
#8.7 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:34 PM EDT
Buckeye Voter

You know the final 'score' over those 3 days ? 1200+ of them dead to 39 of us.

I'm surprised the kill ratio wasn't further off, to be honest.

How many times have we seen family members accidentally shoot each other because they mistook them for a burglar?

Although I, too, have been through firearms training (long ago, I'd need a complete refresher). But a gun in my house, with kids? No, that's much more dangerous than not having a firearm.

I don't trust anyone who brings a gun to a potentially contentious rally with having the sense to use it properly.

  • 8 votes
#8.8 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:50 PM EDT
Redneck Power

I don't believe anyone believes the military would ever go against the American people. This isn't the 1860s and few people trust the government enough to follow an order like that. Though I believe the US government will one day want the military to turn on its people. With all due respect.

  • 2 votes
#8.9 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:06 PM EDT
TheDoorKeeper

Sgt C don't forget the AC-130's, CAS, Cobra's, WP, Tanks, D9s, Javelin's, SMAW's, 81's 60's, and etc etc.. That helped a little bit more than good markmanship wouldn't you say.. I am assuming you were 03 something or other and to your credit you guys did do a heck of a job there in Fallujah.. Semper Fi

  • 3 votes
#8.10 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:39 AM EDT
TheDoorKeeper

Just out of curiousity SGT C, what you unit were you with in 04'?

    #8.11 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:44 AM EDT
    robertlyn-schultz

    Hey Sgt. C,

    How you Be?

    I just cracked-up at this bit of NCO based observation:

    Do they know what the backblast radius of an AT-4 is ? Do they know how many revolutions it takes to arm ? The answer is nope, probably not. They're just cool. Great...my neighbor hasn't even showed he's capable of handling a propane bbq without burning his eyebrows off.

    Friggin Classic... Thanks so much!

    Duty First Sgt.!

    Aloha

    • 5 votes
    #8.12 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:04 AM EDT
    shipahoy

    Sgt.C, you forgot to mention in your B.S. yarn about shooting quarters at 600 yards, what caliber your rifle is, what bullet you use, what trigger assembly, what scope, powder, primer, setup, wind velocity, time of day or night, altitude, was it a new quarter or old quarter, was the quarter laying down, standing up, standing side ways etc, etc. Ha! Ha! Ha! People that bloviate war stories are usually ones that never saw a day of combat. Marines show up after the Army has done all the work.

      #8.13 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:56 AM EDT
      Buckeye Voter

      Sgt.C, you forgot to mention in your B.S. yarn about shooting quarters at 600 yards...

      Never underestimate how good someone can get with a firearm when the bullets are free and they have all the time in the world. I knew a Marine MP who would go out in the desert, take spent batteries, throw them as hard as he could, spin, draw his sidearm and shoot them mid-air - at night. He did that often enough to actually hit the batteries more often than not.

      Back when I was shooting, I could put a magazine of bullets through the same hole at 30 yards with iron sights. It just takes practice. Wasn't there a GI in Vietnam that had over 150 confirmed kills? He'd just head-shot 'cong after 'cong without missing. I don't think he was ever wounded.

      Marines show up after the Army has done all the work.

      Two different fighting styles. The Army is geared towards systemic taking of land and resources. They attempt to do so efficiently without undue loss of life. Marines are geared to quick strikes without supply lines, often putting their personnel in greater danger (this is not considered a good thing). I realize that's an oversimplification, but their roles are different.

      • 4 votes
      #8.14 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:29 AM EDT
      Stone5150

      Marines show up after the Army has done all the work.

      Obviously you know two things about which you are jabbering, jack and sh!t and jack left town.

      • 6 votes
      #8.15 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
      Sgt C USMC

      shipahoy,

      To quote myself (which I hate doing)

      ' Remington model 700 SPS that I used to shoot quarters with at nearly 600 yards for fun'

      Being Google is obviously not your friend, it's a .308 police grade sniper rifle. Bolt action, match grade trigger, free floating barrel, integrated bipod. Couple that with a Leupold VX-1 3 1/2 x 9 x by 40 mm and shooting quarters is not as hard as it seems. Keep in mind that many in the community can shoot a 2 inch group at 500 yards with an off the rack M16A2 with iron sights.

      • 6 votes
      #8.16 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:10 AM EDT
      Sgt C USMC

      Wow Ship, that's funny. Seriously, you need to not listen to everything your recruiter told you.

      I'll tell you what though, if the Army would use some common sense (and soldiers would show some discipline) your convoys wouldn't get hit near as much.

      Marine Convoy ? Minimum 8-10 vehicles , with at least a 240 on each one. Every vehicle has a crew served weapon.

      Army Convoy? typically 2-3 with one crew served. People riding with their headphones in, exchanged their kevlars for dew-rags, flak jackets wide open, weapons not facing outboard. And you wonder why they get hit 4 times as often as Marine convoys. It's about being a hard target. How do I know ? Because I was one of the ones who would fast rope down into hot areas to secure your wrecked strykers and APVs that got hit in IEDs. One my buddies was part of the BIT (and if you don't know what it is, I'm not at liberty to tell you) and we went to MANY trashed army convoys in the triangle.

      I hope that one day when guys like me come to retrieve your ass, you're willing to eat crow. Because that my friend...is what we do.

      • 6 votes
      #8.17 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
      Sgt C USMC

      Ship, I got a little heated there, and I'm sorry if you think I implied that the 'convoy issue' is your fault. It's not. Convoy operations are dictated MUCH MUCH higher up the chain than you or I, and it's up to your unit SOP (and your senior NCOs to make sure that SOP is followed) that is to blame for this.

      People only get away with what they're allowed to. If you're being allowed to run convoys wearing dew-rags, that's a failure of your leaders...

      • 5 votes
      #8.18 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:46 AM EDT
      Sgt C USMC

      Doorkeeper,

      Which time ? 03 I was part of the VIP security detail in Afghanistan. 04-05 I was attached to RCT 1...the second time...well...let's just say I was an 'augment' to a group of guys that hated daylight and public affairs crews....*chuckles*

      What about you?

      • 4 votes
      #8.19 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
      Sgt C USMC

      Doorkeeper, Oh yes, we love our CAS and every ground guy hates the 'wingers' until we need the @!$%# blown out of something. Then they love them. To answer your question about MOS, I've held 0311, 0321, 0659, 8531, 8532, and i'm sure I left out a few others...and soon to hold 8411.

      Buckeye, to be honest..part of the reason the kill ratio wasn't higher was -

      1. we were in their town. MOUT is a very different animal from open terrain fighting, and your distances of engagement are much closer (think feet instead of yards) so there's much less room for error. It's a bit like playing hide and seek, but with weapons. Homefield is definitely an advantage.

      2. (And probably more likely) they booby-trapped the @!$%# out of it. There were AP charges set up all throughout the town.

      3. Part of our mission priorities were capturing weapons caches. (We were still searching for WMDs at the time.) Meaning we couldn't just unload a Mk19 into the house, so we had to sweep them.

      This made the bad guys job easier. shaped charge and det-cord on a cheap magnetic switch (like your window alarms) so when we breech the door, the shaped charge blows the door back into us. Some of these doors also had glass and other fun stuff glued to them.

      (Actually we found a weapons cache one morning when the saw gunner got frustrated and kicked the toilet...the toilet was bolted to a false floor panel and there was a hidden room under the house with a ton of italian arty shells, russian mines, RPGs, and AKs. EOD boys had some fun with that one. )

      • 5 votes
      #8.20 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
      Buckeye Voter

      I was wondering if a good portion of those kills were something other than gunfire. I was thinking IEDs.

      • 3 votes
      #8.21 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:57 PM EDT
      Reply
      RCapNY

      "Speak softly and carry a Big Stick", or gun? Hmm. maybe.

      Sgt... I don't really know who it is that thinks there would be a revolution. If there were one, wouldn't it be based on the fact that the Gov't would be illegally oppressing the people? Anything less than that, local Law Enforcement would be able to handle. Basically, taking the military out of the equation? The military would see the unlawful demands that would be placed upon them?

      Stone... The arguement against your 'driving' situation is; it's a priveledge and not a right. But, all states will recognized your license to drive, whereas they will not all recognize my license/permit to carry a weapon. The driving age and laws are not the same in every state.

      That seems very odd, don't you think? Jeez, I'm in Nassau County of NY and it takes around 6 months of background checks and other hoops before they give it to you... There was a time, not long ago, when gun ownership and marksmanship was the norm in the USA. Father's or older male family members would take their boy's and some girls shooting. Teaching them gun safety and the proper use of firearms. Some called it the 'golden age'. Now, it seems like it has stayed in the past due to people equating a gun to only criminal behavior. But, the criminals are still around and more prominent then in the past...

      • 1 vote
      Reply#9 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:48 PM EDT
      Sgt C USMC

      RCap,

      In the unlikely event that would happen (I was just utilizing it as an example to how that section of the second amendment has been rendered moot by the advancements in weaponry that the founding fathers never could've forseen) then the devil comes in the details -

      "I solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic..." The question that would be faced, is are they enemies ? We were posed this question after Pearl Harbor, and the answer was at the time 'yes' which resulted in the Goverment setting up internment camps to house US citizens because they were of asian descent.

      If it's a group of people who are trying to overthrow the government and install their own in its place, than I suspect they military would stand against that, and it would be comical at best, at worst, it'd be like CAX but shorter. The military's force multipliers are just too great for any civilian uprising to resist, and many of them require minimum manning to employ. (The predator can kill targets up to 800 miles away with nothing more than a single person with a joystick and a monitor.)

      In the event that it's Manzanaar revisited , I suspect that the military supporting the action would be about 1/3 of the total strength, just based on statistics. 1/3 would fight against the military, and 1/3 would just get out and not participate either way. However that remaining 3rd is more than enough manpower to employ the weapons necessary to destroy whatever is needed. It all boils down to force multipliers, and they're just too great.

      Just a simple timeline of how this would play out...(keep in mind that the biggest obstacle in any war is typically air defense, but that hurdle doesn't exist here, so the AWACS and CAPs are free and clear.)

      Within 15 minutes of the 'declaration' all CMCC material codes are changed, restricting access to only those on the PRP, so no classified material can be disseminated or compromised by the uprisers. Also, the GPS satellite offsets would be modified for the military equipment, making it more difficult to track.

      Within 1 hour, communication platforms would all be routed through the NSA, which would force the 'uprisers' to utilize OTA radio communications

      Within 2 hours, Chameleons are emplaced which jam all civilian band cell phones, and radio communications. AWACS is now flying and taking thermal imagry of properties and looking for large groups of 'uprisers' in 'designated target zones'

      At this point...you can just wait for the frustration to take affect. Identify safe houses using thermal imagry, have the power shut down (special ops can destroy the generators if needbe) and then you just sit there and watch the madness commence.

      How do I know this would work? We did it to Iraq in 1989. In less than 12 hours the entire country was deaf, blind, and dumb , and we had to knock out their communications equipment instead of reroute it.

      The next step was cruise missiles fired off shore, but it wouldn't be necessary here.

      • 4 votes
      #9.1 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
      RCapNY

      Thanks Sgt...

      I hope some people realize from your words, that the people only really have the good people in the military, that's what's left of our 2nd amendment, because we have conceded most of our firepower already. In the end if some foriegn power invaded some of us could die while fighting... better than not.

      The 'not so' funny thing about what you mentioned above, is that damn 'predator'. I love that thing! But, it potentially takes the person (American) out of the equation of control. I'm not scared of a 'tyrannical' Gov't being a problem, but if I'd imagine a situation like that... It's not you I'd fear. American's and moreso US Military aren't going to be my enemy.

      • 1 vote
      #9.2 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:43 PM EDT
      TheDoorKeeper

      Sgt C, nice! It's always good to see a fellow 0311. I spent most of my time (2 deployments) with 3/1 K CO. Once as a SAW gunner 05', then a team leader 07'. After we got back stateside with the 13th MEU, I joined up with RCT-1 and went over as a driver for an EPRT PSD. Are you still on active duty?

      • 3 votes
      #9.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:38 AM EDT
      TheDoorKeeper

      Shipahoy, I have always appreciated the feud between Army and the Marines, just so long as you don't actually believe what you just said because that would be the pinnacle of ignorance..

      • 1 vote
      #9.4 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
      Reply
      EllieP

      Nice article, Lord Fluffy. It's not necessary to flaunt every right everywhere. Clipping to a few groups.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#10 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:03 PM EDT
      TheDoorKeeper

      I think it is necessary to begin with informing everyone present that I am a gun enthusiast, avid hunter, and a veteran.. Now, I know I am not the most intelligent or up to speed guy and I do my best to keep my political opinions to myself as I realized a long time ago that it is often a Catch 22 situation. I, however could not ignore this because of the undeniable insanity of it.. A lot of you probably just tuned me out right there thinking something like, "they are well within their rights" and you are right, they are obeying the laws, for now.. But tell me that this is not a silent threat, if you can tell me that then you are obviously just as insane as them and would probably stand idly by as Americans kill one another and possibly even participate... These men claim to be the true patriots but the fact is they are threatening my country and my 2nd amendment rights with their actions.. Someone needs to step up and calm these misguided fools down..

      • 2 votes
      Reply#11 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:28 AM EDT
      TheDoorKeeper

      As a post script note to #11, does the fact that they were "well dressed" give their actions good meaning intentions somehow? Some might be impressed by that, but if given time I could put a suit on a monkey, just a thought..

        #11.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:50 AM EDT
        Stone5150

        if given time I could put a suit on a monkey

        Someone did already, but fortunately for all of us he could only serve 2 terms.

        • 3 votes
        #11.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
        Reply
        mountainmike-1199289

        I have no issue with the second ammendment. However,

        As I have said before, guns have no place in an open community discussion. They have been obviously used in conjunction with town hall meetings to INTIMIDATE. That intimidation is not conducive to open discussion.

        And that is my main issue with the right wing anti health care reform fanatics - not that they have a different point of view than I do. Their purpose is in fact to intimidate and compromise discussions. And my resentment of people doing this by design is extreme. While I can sit and respectfully listen to someone express their viewpoint in an intelligent manner as as related to CONTENT and SUBSTANCE of health care reform, I resent the freak circus of loaded guns, effigies, photos of Obama Hitler, and extra especially flat out LIES.

        The more guns that show up at town hall meetings, the greater the hazard of an incident or accident happening.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#12 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:07 AM EDT
        Nick46

        "Just because you CAN do something, does not mean that you SHOULD."

        I always do things because I can. My spouse always says why did you do that? My answer is usually "because I wanted to". No harm no foul.

          Reply#13 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:21 AM EDT
          Concerned75

          Actually if someone is imtimidated by the firearm then they are jsut easily imtimidated. it is funnt the secret service did not view it as a threat. Nor were they imtimidated by the presents of the firearms. I would think they would have reacted if they were.

          There mere carrying of a firearm does not constitute a lack of responsibility. Actually being able to cary in this enviroment without incident shows a great deal of responsibility. The fire arm at that point is in a defensive poster. Actually I would like to see a larger presence of people exercising their rights. It is time we face the issue if we stand on the belief of our rights or do we coward down to the Government and relinquish those rights.

          To use the example if there are more firearms present there is larger chances of an incident and the firearms need to banned is flawed. That is like saying the presence of more cars on the highway increases the chances of accidents and they should be banned. One big differnce is the firearms are protected by the constitution and the cars are not. But we are ready to give up the firearms but not the cars. Maybe we could issue the soldiers cars when we send them into the battlefield. Guns are just to imtimidating. Cars kill people too and are less imtimidating.

          So here again I see nothing wrong withte presence of the firearms. No laws were broken and they were handled in a responsible manner. If they are viewed as imtimidating by some well that is their issue. I am not imtimidated by someone carrying a firearm. But peoples issues are usually the causes for silly laws and calls for amendment changes. That silly constitution is too limiting. We can't get other people to act jsut like us as long as there is a constitution.

            Reply#14 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:29 AM EDT
            Brad_440

            I would be willing to bet the secret service had a gun on that guy. Just because they didn't arrest him doesn't mean they didn't react. And the secret service members keeping an eye on him were no longer able to look for real threats. Imagine how easy it would be for someone to kill elected officials if everyone exercised their right and carried weapons around them.

            I have no problem with people open carrying but there are places that it isn't neccessary or smart. Just like you shouldn't carry a gun at a bar because when drinking you might not be thinking clearly you shouldn't carry a gun at an aurgument/protest because tempers could flare and you might not be thinking clearly in that situation either. It also inflames the far left and could bring about more gun laws these same people oppose.

            You don't bring a pen to the battlefield just like you don't bring a gun to the negotiation table.

            • 4 votes
            #14.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
            Stone5150

            You don't bring a pen to the battlefield just like you don't bring a gun to the negotiation table.

            I like that and I plan on stealing it.

            • 4 votes
            #14.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
            Sgt C USMC

            No weapon no matter how massive or deadly has ever ended a war. Only a pen has the power to do that.

            • 4 votes
            #14.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:23 AM EDT
            Sgt C USMC

            Brad, that's an understatement. I'd be willing to bet 3 or 4 weapons actually actually considering how CS operations worse. Radio traffic was busy, and he was definitely a 'person of interest.'

            • 3 votes
            #14.4 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
            Concerned75

            I am almost willing to bet that this guy and about every other person around hin were a "person of interest". Along the same lines ask Japan about the weapon that ended World War II. They might disagree on that point. The weapon sometimes forces the pen into action. Without the weapon there is no reason for the pen to be picked up. Sorry to not be living in the perfect world with everyone else.

            So it can be clear you have the right to carry but only when necessary and smart to do so. Bars are excluded because of the obvious. As the building where the President actually was also was excluded. As many public buildings are. If we are afraid of losing our rights because we are not smart. then the bill of rights, all of them, are in huge trouble.

            But in this country only the smart have rights. Guess that is where this is going. Guess that is where this country is headed. We can't even drive our cars without a seatbelt on every person in the car. I can see a government exercise program coming too. Every morning at 5:00am on Government TV..."Jumping Jacks". After all lack of exercise causes rising healthcare cost. Silly laws to pacify the babies.

            • 2 votes
            #14.5 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
            Brad_440

            Who said anything about only the smart having rights? Who said anything about losing rights because we are not smart? I was stating that the reaction to peoples actions could bring about un-intended changes if their not careful. There are a lot of people in this country that don't want guns around for more than hunting or at all. Your just making random conclusions about things that were not said or even eluded to.

            I completely disaprove of seatbelt and helmet laws but that has nothing to do with the current conversation. Neither does government mandated jumping jacks. Try to stay on topic.

            • 2 votes
            #14.6 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
            Concerned75

            Actually it was eluded to the fact it is okay to carry but not in places that are not necessary or smart. Later it was said that it gives the left fuel to bring more gun laws. Don't think it was that far of a leap. Actually with the expose guns the secret service job becomes easier. Someone planning to maybe take a shot at the President might actually think a moment looking around seeing all the weaponry. But of course a lot of criminals wouldn't consider such a thing. Comes under the heading of "locks are for honest people only".

            To make it simple. I am saying carry in this situation is like carrying at other times. We say we are carrying for protection. They say we are carrying for intimidation. That can be argued well into eternity with no conclusion. But I will now and tomorrow stand that the presence of guns is the best protection there is. Up to and including in the presence of the president. I do however agree actually in the building where the people are gathering it is prudent to disarm. Just as it is in a bar. But on the perimeter it is actually extra security for the President when a law abiding citizen is armed.

            Most people would not take an action towards the life of the President when they look around and see all the weapons that will come to the aid of the President. Although I disagree with the policies I would still protect the man. He is the president even if I disagree with his actions. I have no problem with someone actually threating his life being taken out. But these people carrying in the case are not a threat. Search, Identify and Destroy.

              #14.7 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:44 AM EDT
              SW Missouri Mule

              How would an UNTRAINED civilian know the difference between a threat to the president and a plain clothed secret service agent? How effective would an UNTRAINED civilian be in displaying or discharging a weapon in a crowd? By what right does a civilian have to draw and point a firearm into or near a group of people? How can the TRAINED and PAID law enforcement know the difference between a civilian protecting the pres. and an assassin or diversion? Would you know the difference between the sniper on the 15th floor and the old lady watching from the 16th floor? NO! You are the wild card. The fly in the ointment. The loose cannon. The unpredictable. Nobody needs or wants the help of a civilian who is not trained in the high skilled, high alert, high tension position of protecting the president. You are only fooling yourself.

              An armed militia does not patrol the streets in case of trouble. They are to protect the country in the case of outside attack or from the government at the will of the people.

              • 3 votes
              #14.8 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
              Stone5150

              Ohh come on, everyone that owns a gun is Rambo, Dirty Harry and Neo all rolled into one. They are bad ass, indestructible and fearless. They can shoot a flea off a sheepdog's ass at a thousand yards, curve bullets around corners and shoot all the bad guys just on pure instinct. If they are hit, it is only in the shoulder and innocent bystanders are never ever shot by accident. No matter how many people they shoot nor how much property they destroy in pursuit of the bad guys, the cops never shoot at them, arrest them or even so much as question them.

              I know this because TV told me and TV never lies.

              • 2 votes
              #14.9 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
              SW Missouri Mule

              Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger, my gun and my badge and fighting abilities make me inches taller than I really am. Don't hire any statuesque actresses. It's against my contract.

              • 2 votes
              #14.10 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:54 AM EDT
              Reply
              RI Mom

              The gun toters look....ridiculous.

              • 6 votes
              Reply#15 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:14 AM EDT
              TheJonesGirl

              Seriously. I see them and I feel sorry for them, knowing how they are probably overcompensating for their shortcomings in other areas...

              • 2 votes
              #15.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
              Reply
              Terry-994466

              Sgt. C is correct in advising you that carrying weapons to a town hall meeting is redundant. If you make officials feel intimidated they will simply have town hall meeting via conference calling. I am fully for the 2nd Amendment,as my Constituional Right. For those who don't know,an AR-15 is a single shot assualt rifle,the automatic trigger housing,has been removed and replaced by a semi-automatic housing. Hardly capable of swaying the government. I am a former Nuclear,Biological, Chemical Warfare Instructor, my last tour was with the 101st Airbourne. I retired in 1985. I am from Nebraska,where most young men grow up knowing how to use a weapon. The good Sargeant's skills did not just happen, they were perfected. The 101st Airbourne is an assualt division,they do door to door,house calls too! Many Marines went to my Chemical Warfare School,as the Army was one of two schools in the world to teach this. The other school was in the USSR. The fire power in your military is so great and advanced,you can all sleep at night knowing you have people willing to die to keep you safe. Yes, you have the right to carry guns in the open,you also have the right to exercise your vote. But first exercise you brain. Thanks! To my friend Sgt. C OOORRRAAA !

              • 3 votes
              Reply#16 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              I wanted to go to that school, sadly it never happened. I've heard the curriculum there is a gas! (sorry , couldn't resist.)

              • 4 votes
              #16.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
              Stone5150

              NBC classes stunk, I wasn't really suited to them. (lame puns intended)

              • 5 votes
              #16.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              Well I think the puns are all MOPPed up here... ;-)

              • 4 votes
              #16.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
              Reply
              LordFluffy

              Some general notes:

              Schroedingers Cat: Thanks for the kind words. In a different gun thread, I had someone tell me to never get a CCW because (due to my liberal nature) I'd be likely to just hand over my gun out of pity. This was because I had issue with someone emptying a handgun into an unarmed, wounded and pretty much defenseless person.

              Sgt. C: I responded to you before and I thank you for representing a rational person with firearms experience. We need more of those.

              I do have a question about one thing you said. Concerning the idea of an armed revolt in America, you point out that people with small arms aren't likely to make as much of a difference as one might think. Assuming the unthinkable happened though, do you think they'd fair better without them? Why?

              DTansy: I had not actually heard about SIEU "thugs" hurting anybody. Can you link a story regarding this so that a proper response can be given?

              To everyone else: I'm enjoying reading your thoughts on this. Thanks for your opinions, votes and presence.

              • 4 votes
              Reply#17 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
              DTansy

              LordFluffy,

              Here,

              here,

              and here.

              Now, I don't claim to know whether these were simply "John Q's"
              showing signs of needing mental health care, or that they
              actually WERE "SEIU Thugs", or "Republican Astro-turfers", or
              any of the other BS labels that both DNC/RNC "drones" are
              saying the "problem" is.

              I'm merely saying that, since ARMED "John Q's" have started
              showing up at these "Town-Hall Meetings", there has been NO
              mention of this kind of CRAP. NONE. Not ANY. Total lack of
              VIOLENCE.

              Where the Gadsden man was allegedly "beat up", there were police
              IN the crowd. It didn't stop a damn thing. But the only talking
              point SINCE then has been "Armed Citizens" at Town-Hall meetings.

              THAT'S what I'm saying.

              • 1 vote
              #17.1 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
              Reply
              softwaresoda168Deleted
              Sgt C USMC

              LF,

              Fair better without their guns ? No. But they wouldn't fair worse either. The only alternative is another military force, or a PMC..but then in the event that they do defeat the military, then the citizens are going to owe them something...and you end up with a tolitarian form of government.

              One of the things people have to consider is that even in a two front war, we're limited in our abilities..not by limitations of manpower, techniques, or weapons...but by rules of engagement, laws of war, and public relations. If you were to take every PR group out of Iraq, the war would be over in a week. The thing is people don't want to know what REALLY goes on in a war. Imagine WW2 if it were broadcast on national TV. I don't think we'd be seeing a 'CBS special on the effects of the flamethrower on human flesh' or 'Napalm and you' What was yesterdays 'battle tactic' is todays war crime. The military force operates on restraint, not power. We've been fighting 'limited wars' since the end of Korea.

              And that's the thing..if you were to take the gloves off, remove ROE, remove the law of war, and fight the enemy at their level, the result would be ...@!$%#ing terrifying. War is horrible, and the only person who wishes to go, has never been.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#19 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
              LordFluffy

              Fair better without their guns ? No. But they wouldn't fair worse either.

              In truth, I'm not sure I'm in agreement with you but then again, I also don't think there's a direct parallel to US gun owners and the people of places like Iraq or Afganistan where they have been fighting on their own soil for more generations that I care to count.

              I don't think it'd be an easy victory for either side truly and I do think the fact that you're shooting at your countrymen would play into both sides.

              Hopefully we never find out.

              The thing is people don't want to know what REALLY goes on in a war.

              Loud and clear. As I understand it, that's one of the reasons we saw so much negative public opinion concerning the Vietnam conflict; we actually saw a lot of that war. I have noted how little of the Iraq war and the fighting in Afghanistan makes it to the news; mostly, it's just a few shots of GI's firing over walls or standing around on base.

              War is horrible, and the only person who wishes to go, has never been.

              Again, well said.

              • 2 votes
              #19.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:51 AM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              Fluffy, I'll agree that its quite the hypothetical link to draw a correlation between military operations that COULD happen here, and when they happen in Iraq. So I'm making a LOT of assumptions being there's no actual model (aside from Bagdhad in '89)

              The reason I say that is not because I think people shouldn't own guns, but because I think that people should have realistic views of what the limitations are of the weapons available to them. They're for self-defense and recreation only, but they won't fight off a military force with today's technology. Our body armor will stop any off the shelf round you can buy. The body armor you can buy won't stop the rounds we use. We don't have to enter through doors where you can ambush us, we can use FLIR and breach the wall behind you. There's nothing that you can buy that can protect you from CS and flash bangs. (Just for a scenario to ponder, drop a CS grenade into a houses central air system , and then just wait outside.)

              I agree with you that the military would largely oppose such a move except if it were domestic terrorists trying to overthrow the constitution, but not all.

              I don't want you to think that I'm some nutjob who thinks you owe us obediance, we work for you. We're your tactical diplomats, not your superiors. We are a tool, just like a firearm. The context in which we're used dictates our role in society, and ultimately our legacy. I want my daughter to be proud to tell her friends 'My daddy is Marine!'

              • 4 votes
              #19.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
              Tex-988483

              Sarge:

              Hey Podjo. I don't think your are a nutjob. I've followed your posts here and enjoyed em quite a bit. I disagree with a few of your points but what the heck. It'd be pretty dang boring were we all to agree. I may issue some of my The World's Most Opinionated Gooberisms later if I get the Jones or time allows.

              I'm pretty dang impressed that in between blowin shyte up and gettin grunts out of trouble there are thoughtful and intellectual Debbel Dawgs out there. Thumbs up Podna.

              Hey, if the poot ever does hit the fan here I'm getting my daughter and Big Dawg and heading all serpentine and bobbin about like farther up into the mountains. I got no call or truck to be flying lead at fellow Americans. I'm pretty content using my Sport Utility Rifles for murderin cans, bottles, old dryers, paper and the occasional Ground Hawg Jihad. Heck, we tried shootin at each other back during the Late Misunderstanding and it didn't seem to work out all that well for us hillbillies....

              best to you and yorn.

              later gator.....

              • 1 vote
              #19.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              'occasional Ground Hawg Jihad

              *LOL* I like that one...

              • 2 votes
              #19.4 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
              GA GUY

              (19.2) This has to be one of the best comments I have ever read on the 'vine!

              Military Personnel, just like weponry should be well respected and "used' with all due care and consideration; both for the men and the mission.

              KUDOS Sgt C!! It is always great to hear the real DEAL without the xmas tree trimmings!

              THANKS!

              • 3 votes
              #19.5 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:58 PM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              Actually, I remember once hitting a ground hog with a riding lawnmower...and the sound it made was PRETTY close to JIHAD....

              • 3 votes
              #19.6 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:22 PM EDT
              GA GUY

              I'll bet THAT was an interesting "spray pattern".

              • 2 votes
              #19.7 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
              EllieP

              yuk... (good thread up till then)

              • 2 votes
              #19.8 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
              DTansy

              Sarge,

              You have a REALLY excellent way of GRAPHICALLY defining...

              (GA Guy - "spray pattern", THAT'S grossly funny!)

              • 1 vote
              #19.9 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:39 AM EDT
              Reply
              Terry-994466

              Amen! I remember my family telling me they saw,dead and wounded troops on TV during Vietnam, and then we all remember the downed pilot in Mogodish,Somolia. They haven't shown images like that since. Too graphic for Americans to watch,might spoil somebody's supper. I truly think we should see that,maybe the American government would think twice before commiting men to war. What really goes on in war, has been sanitized for Americans. So,no big deal. It ain't nothing but a thing! Yea, I was the gas man. But I got to make the Nuclear Simulator's, and blow that @!$%# up. They worked really good,in tunnels! Some days, me and the boys needed a good laugh!

              • 1 vote
              Reply#20 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
              rightisright2009Deleted
              Sgt C USMC

              Right,

              I'll agree with you on most points - however the Armalite AR-15 is metal , not plastic. The handguards are plastic, but the lower receiver is matte finished steel, as is the barrel, and every other component. Its identical in function to its M16 bretheren except it's been retooled to not include the 3 round burst option. (I was going to point out the authors mistake , the biggest being that the AR-15 comes with a 6 inch barrel, the M4 comes with a 4 1/2, but you beat me to it) Also, the M4 is pretty common issue for ALL servicemembers now, not just special forces (who are using the SCAR system nowadays as well as other systems) so I'm suspecting you've been out awhile...no worries though. Times change, but tactics and weapons don't. They just evolve.

              Also , the most dangerous thing about the AR-15 to me is the 5.56 x 45 mm round. The velocity and the fact that it's a tumbling round mean you don't HAVE to be accurate with the round to be lethal (I've seen dead insurgents with an entrance wound in their shin and the exit wound out of the side of their neck) and it moves so fast that it defeats most non-SAAPI style body armor. (I've read it can defeat SAAPI plates too due to the muzzle velocity, however being we're the only nation that uses them , I'm hoping I never find that out for sure.)

              Otherwise youire pretty much dead on with your approximation of the weapon. They're a tool to be used with the proper application. Carrying one to a health care meeting though is not a proper application. It convolutes the issue at hand, and in the end NEITHER argument is as effective as it could've been.

              It's also a bit ironic...considering that the average medical bill from a 75 cent bullet is $7500 that gets passed onto consumers in the form of higher medical wages and therefore, higher premiums.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#22 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:17 PM EDT
              Tex-988483

              Just to add a thought or two....I do love shooting black rifles though I feel the gas piston system in the FAL is a better and more reliable way to go about plunkin the next round into the chamber. Anyhow, though they are fun to shoot and diddle with but, in my lil ol Hipbilly opinion, I think they are a bad choice for a self defense weapon. Well, unless you happen to become a point of assault for an Army of Zombies. If you pop a 5.56 or .223 off defending yer home and miss, chances are you are going to send someone into a dirt map over in the next county.

              Heck. I am not even comfortable with LEO having these guys as issue weapons. I helped a Sheriffs Deputy rig an EoTech on his MForgery the other day at the Fire Hall but it still doesn't sit well with me. Contrary to popular believe there a quite a few LEO that know very little about firearms and I sure as Hell don't want em lettin loose with one of these in either an urban or rural situation. If they've got em sooner or later you can bet the farm they're gonna give em a try. Tasers being a case in point. They are sure gettin a kick out puttin those to use.....

              Bottom line. I have no problem with my neighbors being armed to the teeth. You just have to be smart about making use of em. Of course, you can't legislate smart. Nor, again in the opinion of a Leftneck, is it wise to use the lowest common denominator as basis for law.

              "It convolutes the issue at hand, and in the end NEITHER argument is as effective as it could've been."

              Got that right.

              gotta go see a man a bout a Dawg.......

              • 1 vote
              #22.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:40 PM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              Tex, there are some people I trust to carry any weapon they feel like and some that I'm frankly suprised that they managed to lace their boots up in the morning...

              Which goes to show you why most cops wear boots with zippers instead of laces.

              • 2 votes
              #22.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:26 PM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              Tex , on that note...a 22 LR can travel in excess of 1/2 a mile. Bullets are fire and forget weapons, meaning once you pull the trigger, you can't get it back. This is why police and military are trained to shoot center mass, and not for the head or to wound, and why warning shots aren't authorized - more room for error and therefore bringing in one of the most hated of military terms - collateral damage. The closest you'll see to a warning shot is on ECP in Iraq where a running vehicle will get a couple of 50 cal rounds through the engine and tires to get the drivers attention.

              • 1 vote
              #22.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:32 PM EDT
              LordFluffy

              While I've never had to actually fire a weapon in self defense (and hope that I never do) I imagine, for most home defense needs, a 12ga pump shotgun is really all you need and with the right ammunition is much less likely to result in an accidental wounding four houses down.

              Though I still want an AR-15. I had a lot of fun with the one I got to try out at the range.

              • 1 vote
              #22.4 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
              Sgt C USMC

              AR-15 s are great weapons, but they're not practical for self defense. Too ungainly, and too much risk for collateral damage. (If you purposely shoot a robber, and that bullet travels through him and kills your kid playing across the street, you've defeated your purpose of home/family defense) Shotguns are good for home defense, but again, they're large and ungainly. They're great for long cooridors, but most homes have furnishes and 90 degree turns in them that make a larger weapon more difficult to handle. You don't want the muzzle of your weapon shillouetting in the hallway infront of you...) I personally like a Hechler and Koch USP .40 with glazer safety rounds. This type of ammunition signifcantly resists through and throughs, making them great for home defense (or if you have to shoot from a plane, but that's a different story) with a surefire tac-light mounted underneath.

              Keep in mind though, that while the tac-light is a great tool, it can also give away your position...don't use it until you know where your target is..it's not for location, it's used to blind them. So keep the light off, focus on movements, and use your tritium sights to line up your target. When the targets in your sights, hit him with the light. His eyes will not be adjusted to the light, and he'll hesitate..that will give you that split second to decide whether to shoot or not.

                #22.5 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:05 PM EDT
                Maik

                I agree Sgt C. The AR 15 is a wonderful rifle...but honestly apart from trips to the range, what would any of us actually use it for?

                Talking in shear pragmatics, if a person were to purchase a firearm for self-defense, a handgun would be the best practical choice. An AR 15 would be like buying an expensive BMW 5 series when all you need is a Honda Accord.

                  #22.6 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:21 PM EDT
                  SW Missouri Mule

                  Home protection does not mean keeping the stuff from walking out the door. An alarm is home protection. If you want to protect yourself and family don't go looking for the intruder. Call 911 and wait for him/them to come to you. Don't use a pistol. Too hard to aim, too easy to miss. Use the shotgun. Point in the direction and it's done. A guy gets a dozen or more 22 shots in his trunk and keeps coming because nothing of importance has been hit. Close enough range and a 38 can go through with little damage. It's not how it feels in your hand at the range, it's how much stopping or stalling power it has on the target.

                  • 2 votes
                  #22.7 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:35 PM EDT
                  Sgt C USMC

                  SW, a shotgun is great in theory...but consider that your typical house is not a straight corridor or hallway, but also has a series of bends, forcing you to carry the shotgun at the low alert. The protusion of a shotgun is typically 24-30 inches in front of you, its very easy to snag that weapon either on a wall , sofa, or other obstacle, thus making noise, or the barrel protruding out from behind your cover, and attracting attention (and shots) not to mention the shotgun's spread means that while you may hit MOST of your pellets into your target, there will be errant ones. Some may bounce harmlessly into the wall, some may travel out into the street and injure a bystander. You never know.

                  That's why I like the glaser safety slugs. If they hit a person, it's maximum stopping power. ALL of the energy is transferred to the target (think of them like a shotgun shell for pistols, but only AFTER they enter the flesh) and there is very little risk of ricochet or over-penetration. Penetration when shooting someone isn't always the best thing. You want to be able to penetrate light cover, but ideally you want to as much force transferrred into the target as possible. This generates the maximum amount of 'knock down power' . That's why larger caliber rounds ( and therefore slower) are favored over their smaller counterparts. More muzzle velocity equals more penetration, but less knock down power.

                  • 2 votes
                  #22.8 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:49 PM EDT
                  SW Missouri Mule

                  As I said, you don't go looking for the intruder. You are only protecting your family. Unless you have a big-ass house most of the bedrooms are in a central area away from open space. I understand what you are saying about stopping or knockdown power. I think nearly anyone seeing the blast and spray coming toward them will leave if not knocked down. And isn't that the point? I know exactly where I would be depending on where I thought he was. That involves thinking and planing in advance. I would also be MUCH less concerned about a few pellets breaking through the glass and still having the force to injure someone outside of the house. Some people think they can shoot a pistol in a live situation against a human as they do at the range. That does not always work. The fear, shaking, moving target all make it more difficult. Shotgun. Point and shoot.

                  • 2 votes
                  #22.9 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:47 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  robertlyn-schultz

                  OK I've been following this for a bit... Two things come to mind.

                  1. As long as one is with-in the Law there should be no problem from there fellow citizens for there choices in life. I see from many posting here, that the simple concept of Liberty is a frightening thing... Sad.
                  2. About the Katana comment above Stone; a sword is an "Arm"... hence no restrictions should be placed on it's being worn in a sheath and is protected under the 2nd Amendment... however the Shurikens in the hand would be "Brandishing a weapon" and in most places that is illegal and a direct threat.

                  Well enjoy...

                  Aloha All

                  • 4 votes
                  #23 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                  EllieP

                  Hey there, robertlyn. I hear you loud and clear and agree with you. I see the issue as being cultural rather than legal. Some would argue the best way to get people comfortable being around armed citizens would be for them to be around more armed citizens and that would be true. I suppose if non-carriers were somehow aware ahead of time that pro-2nd amendment groups would be carrying at a political rally it would be less jarring to them. I really don't know the answer; I just hope insensitivity doesn't lead to less freedom. Thoughts?

                  Best to you.

                  • 3 votes
                  #23.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:18 PM EDT
                  Sgt C USMC

                  Ellie, if there were some kind of system mandating firearms training for all people (if it's a constitutional right, why not teach weapons handling and safety rules in school ? My 10 year old daughter knows weapon safety rules, conditions, and proper handling procedures even though she has no access to a gun at this point in time , she may have access one day) then I'd agree. The problem is that the ONLY thing you need to buy a gun with ...is money. Knowledge and competance is optional. This creates a level of uncertainty in most people, 'is this guy competant with that weapon, or not? Is he accidentally going to shoot me in the face?'

                  Every person on the road has a license, and we assume based on that license, they are competant in handling that vehicle. We even have legal discourse if they're negligent with that vehicle.

                  If it were up to me ( and it's not) each class of firearm would have a renewable license that you MUST obtain before you can purchase said weapon. Handgun, Rifle, Shotgun. No different than the DMV with cars and motorcycles. In exchange for this, the ban would be lifted on 'cosmetic' assault rifles. Only strictly military technology (bayonet lugs, threaded barrels, fully automatic, and explosive /incinderary/ armor piercing rounds) would be banned from personal ownership. If you want to purchase an Uzi, fine. But it stays at the gun range. Not in your house. There's no reason to keep it at home, it's worthless for hunting AND self-defense. But they are fun. . This way, people at least KNOW that at one time, the person showed proficiency in handling and utilizing this weapon to a trained instructor.

                  On the OTHER end of the argument, people who are afraid of guns should come visit their local military base when the non - infantry types are doing their combat course of fire. . Over 100,000 rounds fired, and not ONE safety violation, mishap, or accidental shooting. And these are people that aside from boot camp handle a weapon only once a year. Education makes all of the difference. This way they'd realize that education (and strict enforcement) of any safety rules is sufficient to enable people to handle weapons properly, and they wouldn't be so scared of people who carry them openly.

                  Add to that IFIS being run on every gun BEFORE it leaves the manufacturers warehouse, and the anti-gun arguments would go down drastically. Even criminals couldn't get clean guns then.

                  • 2 votes
                  #23.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:51 PM EDT
                  LordFluffy

                  it were up to me ( and it's not) each class of firearm would have a renewable license that you MUST obtain before you can purchase said weapon.

                  The problem with this is who sets the standards? It wouldn't be very hard to make the standards restrictive enough (say with a high dollar fee or previous military experiences) to keep who has arms limited and infringe on the 2nd amendment. I'm not saying this is likely, I'm just saying that it is a danger.

                  Also, why would you ban bayonet lugs? I own a Mosin Nagant m49 with a big ol' spike bayonet and I wouldn't classify it as signifcantly more dangerous with it than without it. I've had some training in spear fighting through martial arts classes and I still wouldn't necessarily want to rely on it as a third line of defense, much less first.

                  And keep in mind, to own a fully automatic weapon in the US, you do have to go through a much more stringent background check than you do for a semi-auto weapon (which I'm sure you're aware of).

                  • 1 vote
                  #23.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:58 PM EDT
                  EllieP

                  (if it's a constitutional right, why not teach weapons handling and safety rules in school

                  I've said the same thing myself. Didn't even think about its applicability to my own question. Thanks. I don't think there's much chance it'll happen realistically for many reasons...

                  • 3 votes
                  #23.4 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:14 PM EDT
                  Tex-988483

                  "if it's a constitutional right, why not teach weapons handling and safety rules in school"

                  Yup. I'm down for that. When I grew up that was a parental responsibility. Sadly these days it is lacking. I taught my daughter safety, manipulation and marksmanship. She can out shoot the poot outa me now....She's also the only girl at her college I know that can break down and reassemble a 1911 or AR.

                  I think teaching a class in school is far more palatable than any sort of mandatory training, licensing or registration. The first which would no doubt lead to the latter two. Start that and you open a big ol smelly can of worms.

                  best to all despite our differences, affiliations or afflictions....

                    #23.5 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:24 PM EDT
                    Sgt C USMC

                    In my little hypothetical world , the standards would be similar to those required for law enforcement officers or military - demonstrate proper weapons handling procedures, proper use of the weapon, and marksmenship fundamentals. The most cost-effective method of this would be to have them go to the military's rifle / pistol / shotgun range. They get proper weapons safety classes, classes on proper handling, fundamentals of marksmenship, and then have them shoot the known distance course with their chosen weapon. It's already set up, with predetermined guidelines (it would be strictly a pass/fail, not a graded exam like we do) and once they passed (which ANYONE who pays attention and gets preconceived notions about shooting out of their heads can do) then they get their 'license.'
                    All they have to provide is their own ammo. We provide the instructors and coaches.

                    Re the bayonet lug, I understand your point (no pun intended) , but my question then becomes - does it have a non-military purpose ? Most bayonets are illegal anyways (double edged blade in excess of 2 7/8 inches) so having a bayonet lug is a bit of a moot point I would think. I suspect we could throw a clause in there for nostalgic purposes of older firearms (I had an old russian SKS that had one too, so I know where you're coming from. Some weapons, you just can't avoid it.) but when we consider that the primary use of personal weapons is self defense hunting or recreation ...does a bayonet meet either of those needs ? . Unless you're intending on stabbing the jihadist ground hawgs...

                    • 2 votes
                    #23.6 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:25 PM EDT
                    Sgt C USMC

                    Tex, classroom teaching is important, and that's why the first 2 days of each range are all about safety and marksmenship...but I can talk about sight alignment , trigger control, breath control, building a position, bone support, windage calls, and follow through until I'm blue in the face. Same goes with describing thumbing, too much/too little trigger finger, curling, squeezing, jerking, anticipating, rocking, and any of a hundred other marksmenship fundamentals and flaws. Until you get someone to actually fire a round, see the result on paper , and realize that what they did affects where the round goes, it's all academic. They may be safe, but they're not competant marksmen...which in turn makes them unsafe.

                    • 3 votes
                    #23.7 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
                    Tex-988483

                    I agree that training is important and every individual that has not been raised in a firearms culture should seek it. And those of us that were as well. I have a problem with the need to license and track. That is my reasoning for supporting safety and marksmanship in a school situation.

                    Here's a screwy observation. I have CCP's from 3 states. In the Pacific NW the actual hands on training was pretty nice. Spent about 4 hours at the range with a feller that taught PDX SWAT. Come to think of it, I spent about 6 as I stayed and shot the shyte and shot a little afterwards with him. We put a load o rounds down range and every participant was given ample time and instruction. Way way way down south, and I'm not gonna mention the name though there's a Giant Rat Castle in the middle of it, it was quite different. After the initial semi study group we all went to the range. There musta been over a hundred of us. We all stood in line and waited our turn. When I got to the lane I was given a pair of safety glasses and plugs. There was a wheel gun on the stand. Picked it up, took one shot at paper, laid it down and handed in my glasses and plugs. That proved my proficiency with weapons handling and safety. Go figure.....

                    I'll admit that the CCP is antithetical to my stance but it is the only game in town. I feel like Alaska and Vermont have the right answer to that one.

                    Long as I am blathering I might as well continue. Noticing how little parents expose their children to any sort of safety or knowledge in regard to firearms I've sorta taken it on myself to do so. For years I've had kids come out to the ranch to shoot. For many of these kids even the basic common sense safety rules were lacking. It is a shame. We live in a society where firearms are ubiquitous and yet they are totally ignored by the larger percentage the population. Heck, I wanted my daughter to know that these are serious tools, they are fun but a huge degree of respect is needed in order to be comfortable and safe with them. Just like I don't want her riding in cars with folks that are drinking, I don't want her around folks that take firearms lightly. All that TV and movie gun play is fun and entertaining but 99% of it is downright pookum. I don't think most kids understand that.....

                    Anyhow, like I sed, I do indeed enjoy your perspective and knowledge.

                    Best atcha.......

                    • 1 vote
                    #23.8 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:56 PM EDT
                    TheJonesGirl

                    (if it's a constitutional right, why not teach weapons handling and safety rules in school ?

                    Would there be opt-out as there is for sex-ed classes? I'm not sure I'd want any hypothetical child of mine learning about guns. Mainly because I'm not wanting any in the home or to encourage hunting.

                      #23.9 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:59 PM EDT
                      Sgt C USMC

                      TheJonesGirl,

                      I understand, and I agree with you to a point. However, do you KNOW that EVERY one of her friends parents will not own a gun? She won't find one on the street, or decide to buy one herself ?

                      I understand being against guns in principle, and I would never think to force gun ownership on anyone. However, just as I believe opting out of sex-ed is myopic, so is having your child opt out of a gun safety class.

                      You can only control the environment so much, beyond that...you have to trust your children to do what they know is right. Spending an hour or so teaching them firearms safety and handling (even avoiding marksmenship, just focusing on safety) could one day save their life or prevent them from hurting someone else accidentally if they were to come across a gun.

                      In fact, you can sum it up with 4 safety rules (follow these rules, and no one gets hurt (literally!)

                      1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
                      2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to kill or destroy.
                      3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire
                      4. Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire

                      They never have to come in contact with a gun to learn and realize these simple rules. Mechanics, marksmenship, loading, unloading, cycle of operations, etc don't even have to be touched...it's just knowledge, just like 'look both ways before you cross the street.'

                        #23.10 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:09 PM EDT
                        Sgt C USMC

                        There musta been over a hundred of us. We all stood in line and waited our turn. When I got to the lane I was given a pair of safety glasses and plugs. There was a wheel gun on the stand. Picked it up, took one shot at paper, laid it down and handed in my glasses and plugs. That proved my proficiency with weapons handling and safety. Go figure.....

                        I think that proves the point rather concisely Tex - which group of CCW holders WOULD you feel more comfortable with pulling their pistol in a life/death situation if it was your life on the line ?

                        • 2 votes
                        #23.11 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:16 PM EDT
                        TheJonesGirl

                        However, do you KNOW that EVERY one of her friends parents will not own a gun? She won't find one on the street, or decide to buy one herself ?

                        I would ask any parent if they have guns. If they don't have them locked up, my kid wouldn't visit their home, simple as that. If he/she wanted to learn later, as an adult, fine.

                        But I don't think giving a bunch of school-aged or even high school aged kids guns in a classroom setting is a wise thing. A Columbine-minded kid could use that as a chance to get his/her revenge--or there could be an accident. And who will pay for the guns and ammo in the classroom, with schools already strapped for cash?

                        • 1 vote
                        #23.12 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:30 PM EDT
                        Tex-988483

                        Well, now that brings up another thought. I like to shoot and train so I do it as much as time and money allow. I'm pretty comfortable with it. Now, if things were to suddenly get all Wild West and everybody decided that a gimpy semi-old hipbilly was a fine enough target to shoot at I might jest prefer em to be inefficient in their endeavor.

                        I figure a truly free society is a pretty dangerous place to live in general. That is the trade off for eschewing a Totalitarian system. My Mamma says to anyone who will listen and is about to take a trip, "Drive like everyone on the road is crazy." Yup. Half the folks driving probably do not have the skill or reflexes to do so in any sane manner. Believe me, I've gathered up enough body parts off the highway to guarantee that. So, I drive like, well, everyone on the road is crazed. Especially on a motorsickle. I kinda look at the populace in the same light. Everyone is potentially crazed and armed and just keep a degree of situational awareness radar out in public. I chalk it all up to those nasty concepts of Liberty and Freedom.

                        • 2 votes
                        #23.13 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:32 PM EDT
                        Sgt C USMC

                        Jones, there would be no need for guns at school for kids. No ammo either. I don't know where you construed that out of my comment, but that's not what I was going for.

                        The education would be limited to safety rules. A single piece of paper with those 4 little rules on them. Pure and simple. Nothing more is needed. If everyone followed those 4 simple rules, there would be next to no accidental shootings, and no dead kids (I think that's a good thing) . No 'red asphalt' videos or any other scare tactics like that would be needed.

                        If you're talking about the licensing idea I tossed out ? The answer to that is the range personnel are all active duty military.This is all we coaches and PMI's do day in and day out, train people to shoot safely. Its our only job.

                        The people who are coming to be licensed would bring their own ammo (not an extra expense being they'd use this at the range anyways) and the other documentation fees are covered already by the price they pay to purchase their guns.

                        • 2 votes
                        #23.14 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:43 PM EDT
                        EllieP

                        I'd support an opt out clause. Maybe even something mid-way like opting out of the "lab" part of the class. The part that deals with understanding the Constitutional rights could easily be included in the hypothetical civics class we'd be adding back into the curriculum.

                        • 4 votes
                        #23.15 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:44 PM EDT
                        Sgt C USMC

                        Ellie, I could support an opt-out clause too, and then sue the parents of the kid who opted out for everything they have for wrongful death when their kid accidentally kills mine.

                        If they opt out of the training, they take the responsibility and consequences onto themselves..I'm okay with that.

                        • 3 votes
                        #23.16 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:07 PM EDT
                        Tex-988483

                        TheJonesGirl:#23.12

                        I'm a parent. I've raised two daughters both comfortable with and skilled with firearms. One is a Social Worker and is getting her CCP, or CCW depending on where you live. I feel that they both understand the responsibility, danger and seriousness of being armed.

                        As a parent believing that you really have any control over life situations or what kids do when you are not around, in my opinion, is a dangerous concept. For kids knowledge and information go a long way in their decision making process. Even a basic safety course without ammo would be a very wise move to circumvent tragedy. Obviously parents are not equipped to do so within a large part of the population. Remember the Faber College Motto? "Knowledge is Good".

                        When I was schooled life was very different. Though in my neck O the woods we were pretty much all raised with an appreciation and respect for firearms they were seldom used for anything other than hunting or plinking. There were always domestic disturbances and a shooting or two every Satiddy night at the local Bucket of Blood but kids didn't really even consider the use of deadly force. We just beat the fool out of each other and let it go. Heck, we used to all bring our bird guns to school and stick em in the locker during season. These day, I don't know. I think we owe it to our children to teach them how to survive in a dangerous world. Withholding knowledge that could very well keep them alive seems to be antithetical to good parenting. It seems rational to me to equip our children with the necessary information to make wise choices and to keep out of danger.

                        best atcha......

                        • 3 votes
                        #23.17 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:09 PM EDT
                        robertlyn-schultz

                        Public Schools used to have marksmanship classes and teams... up until about 70's that is..

                        Now it's just the NRA and local clubs, again Sad!

                        Here are a few article that speak of shooting in schools (the good kind)

                        IHSA Girls Rifle Marksmanship

                        IHSA Boys Rifle Marksmanship

                        Oh here is a article about current law (passed in 2005, Governor Janet Napolitano, signed it into law on April 11 ) in AZ pertaining to school base weapons training:

                        SCHOOL KIDS TO “SHOOT” FOR DIPLOMA

                        Governor Signs Bill, Teaches Actual Gun Safety

                        Here is the text of the law:

                        ARIZONA STATE SENATE BILL 1271 (2005)

                        Enacted 4/11/05 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona: Section 1. Title 15, chapter 7, article 1, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding section 15-714.01, to read: 15-714.01.

                        Arizona Gun Safety Program Course

                        A. IN ADDITION TO THE VOLUNTARY TRAINING IN THE USE OF BOWS AND FIREARMS PRESCRIBED IN SECTIONS 15-713 AND 15-714, EACH SCHOOL DISTRICT AND CHARTER SCHOOL MAY OFFER AS AN ELECTIVE COURSE A ONE-SEMESTER COURSE IN FIREARM MARKSMANSHIP THAT SHALL BE DESIGNATED AS THE ARIZONA GUN SAFETY PROGRAM COURSE.

                        B. A PUPIL SHALL BE DEEMED TO HAVE SATISFACTORILY COMPLETED THE ARIZONA GUN SAFETY PROGRAM COURSE BY DEMONSTRATING THAT THE PUPIL HAS THE ABILITY TO SAFELY DISCHARGE A FIREARM.

                        C. THE COURSE OF INSTRUCTION PRESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION SHALL BE JOINTLY DEVELOPED BY THE ARIZONA GAME AND FISH COMMISSION, THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY AND PRIVATE FIREARMS ORGANIZATIONS AND MAY INCLUDE MATERIALS PROVIDED BY PRIVATE YOUTH ORGANIZATIONS. AT A MINIMUM, THE ARIZONA GUN SAFETY PROGRAM COURSE SHALL INCLUDE:

                        • 1. INSTRUCTION ON THE RULES OF GUN SAFETY.
                        • 2. INSTRUCTION ON THE BASIC OPERATION OF FIREARMS.
                        • 3. INSTRUCTION ON THE HISTORY OF FIREARMS AND MARKSMANSHIP.
                        • 4. INSTRUCTION ON THE ROLE OF FIREARMS IN PRESERVING PEACE AND FREEDOM.
                        • 5. INSTRUCTION ON THE CONSTITUTIONAL ROOTS OF THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.
                        • 6. INSTRUCTION ON THE USE OF CLAY TARGETS.
                        • 7. PRACTICE TIME AT A SHOOTING RANGE.
                        • 8. DEMONSTRATION OF COMPETENCE WITH A FIREARM.

                        D. SCHOOL DISTRICTS AND CHARTER SCHOOLS SHALL ARRANGE FOR ADEQUATE USE OF SHOOTING RANGE TIME BY PUPILS IN THE ARIZONA GUN SAFETY PROGRAM COURSE AT ANY ESTABLISHED SHOOTING RANGE.

                        E. PUPILS WHO SATISFACTORILY COMPLETE THE ARIZONA GUN SAFETY PROGRAM COURSE SHALL RECEIVE A CERTIFICATE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT.

                        F. INSTRUCTORS SHALL BE CERTIFIED BY THE ARIZONA GAME AND FISH DEPARTMENT.

                        G. NOTHING IN THIS SECTION SHALL BE CONSTRUED TO LIMIT OR EXPAND THE LIABILITY OF ANY PERSON UNDER OTHER PROVISIONS OF LAW.

                        Cheers Y'all, Love your Liberty while you have it... once lost, it's hard to get back.

                        Aloha

                        • 4 votes
                        #23.18 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:11 PM EDT
                        LordFluffy

                        I'm not sure I'd want any hypothetical child of mine learning about guns...

                        TheJonesGirl, in general it's better to have a working knowledge of a thing even if you never intend to own one or have it in your possession. Knowing how to determine if a firearm is loaded, unload it safely and how to handle it while your doing it is a valuable bit of knowledge even if you never intend to own a firearm.

                        Not to mention, this hypothetical kid of yours may have a different plan than you. I have seen terrible things happen with kids whose parents kept weapons locked up.

                        Also, familiarity dispels mystique. If you are comfortable around weapons you're more likely to not get nervous if one is produced and one is less likely to panic.

                        Sure you could opt out of firearms awareness courses. But why would you really want to keep such information from your kids? Possession of the firearms, sure, but why would you want to keep the knowledge away?

                        • 4 votes
                        #23.19 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:36 AM EDT
                        robertlyn-schultz

                        Hey Y'all,

                        Thought I'd drop this thought here before I shut-down for the night:

                        Let the hysterics foam and froth. It keeps them from doing more disgusting things. That individuals have rights, not privileges isn't just an idea, it's a fact of objective reality. Let the hysterics be afraid. It's time for them to be afraid.

                        To withhold the truth because you're worried about the reaction of the weakest, stupidest, or most ignorant or corrupt among us -- especially when that truth is exactly what we need to set us free - would be an act of cowardice or insanity. It would mean that we deserve to be where we are now instead of where we aspire to be.

                        It would be the act of a slave.

                        -L. Niel Smith

                        Have a good night all,

                        Aloha

                        • 3 votes
                        #23.20 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:24 AM EDT
                        SW Missouri Mule

                        From quote:

                        Let the hysterics foam and froth. It keeps them from doing more disgusting things.

                        This is how you see your fellow countrymen? Ah, the United states of America, ever torn by rights vs freedom. Always at war with itself. (shakes head and walks away)

                        • 2 votes
                        #23.21 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                        robertlyn-schultz

                        Hey SWMM,

                        Yes I do, I was taken aback by the naked fear of simple Liberty that many of my Countrymen have shown, and the calls for more restrictions on lawful and protected behavior in the name of safety.

                        I have been shaking my head at how allot of folks view their Armed Countrymen for a long time... should we start a club?

                        Have a good weekend,

                        Aloha

                        • 3 votes
                        #23.22 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:32 PM EDT
                        SW Missouri Mule

                        I'm sorry you see the fear. You should have seen me tonight trying to enjoy the beautiful sunset from my front yard. The colors, the cool air, the tree frogs, the @!$%#s shooting LOUD and rapid fire weapons from a deserted farm nearby, so close I thought they were in my woods because I could hear the clicks. Nine o'clock, dark, BOOM! The dog with really bad arthritis in her hips is trying to get in the bathtub. The cats can't find a comfortable place to hide because they feel the vibration with each BOOM! Nine o'clock at night. Dark. The cattle across the road are nervous. It should be quiet now. The woman down the hill has two little boys she has probably just put to bed. BOOM! These @!$%#s don't care. They had been going at it since about 7 getting faster and louder. These aren't hunters sighting in. This is not the turkey shoot at the church up the road. These are some @!$%#s that don't live here coming out to disturb our peace. Thing is, there is no police only county sheriff. There probably is no law other than maybe trespassing. Chances are one of them owns the land but does not live there so does not know or care about his neighbors.

                        You are not a bad guy and I do not fault you for your position but you have to understand that there are too many who have NO respect for others. They have NO manners, no brains, no idea of safety, and they take up the cause because they can blend in. These are the ones who cause fear. You don't know how bad I wanted to talk to these guys tonight. I am not afraid and that is a part of my problem. No fear. I have others to think of now and have to put myself in check.

                        • 4 votes
                        #23.23 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:25 AM EDT
                        robertlyn-schultz

                        Oh SWMM,

                        I was not referring to you, my bad if it seemed like that... I am just Grumpy, I guess I'm getting old. I can tell you not afraid of much.. and no one can deny that you speak your mind! :^)

                        One of my biggest problems is I'm stuck in Santa Ana CA, when I should be out in the middle of nowhere NV! **grumpy grumpy**

                        have a good night, (I am going to power-down soon)

                        Aloha

                        • 5 votes
                        #23.24 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:04 AM EDT
                        SW Missouri Mule

                        Sorry if I get a little loud and passionate. hehe. I do speak my mind and should tone it down but mules aren't known for being quiet. Thanks for being patient with my disagreements. You sure do stick to your guns. :-)

                        • 5 votes
                        #23.25 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:39 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Terry-994466

                        Oh,they will kill you if in the right hands. A skilled soldier like you said, or in the hands of a knuckelhead that shoots you in the head at close range while trying to unsling it,at a Health Care Reform meeting. Personally, I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney,than stand next to a guy that brings a gun to a debate,just cause he can legally. Shows me that he's not secure in his ability to voice his opinion. He had enough time to think of a way to intimidate,but not enough time to educate. Sorry, I'm not buying it! At least Dick Cheney,could have accidentlly hit the bird !

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#24 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:32 PM EDT
                        Scott Zike

                        Can't carry a cop now can you? Carry everyday, everywhere and it is all good.

                          Reply#25 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:49 PM EDT
                          Sgt C USMC

                          Cops don't stop crimes, they catch criminals. But the question becomes are you capable/competant handling your firearm in society ? Here's a simple quiz

                          1. You are approached by a would be mugger with a knife. You withdraw to a distance of 15 feet, and draw your weapon. The mugger has not advanced. Can you shoot him ?

                          2. You are in the mall and you hear a shot. You draw your weapon and proceed to search for the shooter. As luck would have it, you end up behind him, his weapon is drawn, you see no wounded or casualties , and no one is immediately threatened. What are your options ?

                          3. You are in a restaurant and hear a cry for help. You come out to see a cop and criminal wrestling on the ground. The cop is overmatched, and the criminal is attempting to draw the officers weapon presumably to kill him with it. What do you do ?

                          4. Outside of your house, you see your son being assaulted by a schoolyard bully. Your son is obviously losing this fight, and the bully is showing no signs of letting up. Can you draw your weapon in an attempt to de-escalate the situation ?

                          5. There is an attack at the local office where you work. Many people have been shot, some fatally. You draw your weapon and flank the shooter. There is no one threatened at this point in time. Can you shoot him because he killed other people ?

                          • 2 votes
                          #25.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:34 PM EDT
                          trueblue-1106671

                          How about this scenario:

                          YOu are in the mall you hear a shot, pull your gun and advance towards the noise, you see dead people around,but all is quiet, when suddenly you are shot from behind and the side multiple times by the police who have been called to the scene. You then die and are written up,or should I say off,as one of those weird serial muderers who lost it for no apparent reason. You are not the police, stop pretenting you are.

                          • 1 vote
                          #25.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:03 PM EDT
                          Sgt C USMC

                          trueblue, then the police go to prison for murder. You can't shoot someone for what they DID. Past tense doesn't apply to lethal force, only imminent and lethal threats constitute lethal force. So let me explain how this REALLY works.

                          In your situation - the police are required to identify themselves. They order you to put the gun down. you place the weapon on safe, remove your hand from the trigger, drop the magazine to the floor, lock the slide to the rear extracting the spent round , and ensuring you flag no officer grab the pistol by the barrel and very slowly and deliberately, you place the weapon down and step away from it. You then are handcuffed, and led out of the building. You explain you have a CCWP, show them the paperwork. Once they verify it, you are released, and your gun is returned. You reholster your weapon, and go home.

                          • 3 votes
                          #25.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:14 PM EDT
                          LordFluffy

                          While state laws may vary, I'm guessing the answers go something like this:

                          1. Firing on the mugger in the scenario described would be considered excessive force. You would only have the option to shoot if you did not have the option to run and you felt you were in immediate danger of harm, i.e. the mugger started advancing.

                          2. Also a no shoot situation. You'd be within your rights to tell the guy to put the gun on the ground and to keep him there until the authorities arrived, but you can't just shoot a guy in the back.

                          3. You could probably draw a weapon and hold it on him, but until the criminal has the gun free and is pointing it at the officer you're not authorized to shoot. I'm not sure what the consequence of attempting to restraing the criminal by other means would be.

                          4. No you can't pull a gun on the kid beating up your kid. You can pull the kid off of him, but this again would be an excessive force situation.

                          5. No, you can't shoot someone because they shot people. If they turn the gun towards you, it becomes a case of self defense.

                          And alot of how each case might be treated could very well depend on the judge and/or jury trying the case.

                          And trueblue, a guy who chooses to produce a weapon and intercede in a crisis situation isn't pretending to be a cop. Also, while law enforcement officers are trained at handling dangerous situations, they aren't magic. They're guys with guns and training. They don't get special powers, just practice.

                          • 1 vote
                          #25.4 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:50 AM EDT
                          SW Missouri Mule

                          I can't agree with this:

                          And trueblue, a guy who chooses to produce a weapon and intercede in a crisis situation isn't pretending to be a cop. Also, while law enforcement officers are trained at handling dangerous situations, they aren't magic. They're guys with guns and training. They don't get special powers, just practice

                          There are certain laws protecting the actions of cops that do not protect the actions of citizens. Drawing a gun in self defence may be allowed. Drawing a gun to protect others when you yourself are not in danger may not be allowed. We are not cops and we are to follow the law, not uphold it.

                          • 3 votes
                          #25.5 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:07 AM EDT
                          Sgt C USMC

                          Lordfluffy, you are absolutely correct on all counts. These were some of the questions posed to me on my CCWP test (in diffferent contexts) and I've thought they illustrate the lack of understanding many people have between shoot / no shoot situations.

                          Some people don't understand the inherent responsibilities you assume when you carry a weapon, and it's crucial if you're going to own a weapon . You have to know your rights, and your limitations.

                          I agree that in some cases you might get latitude. (for example , #3 you might get to fire a warning shot ) but it is an unlawful discharge of a firearm on city property, and a couple of days later, you could find yourself hooked up for murder when your bullet kills a innocent kid half way across town on account of physics and ballistics and bad luck.)

                          Like I said. Fire and forget weapon. You can't take it back.

                          • 1 vote
                          #25.6 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:15 AM EDT
                          RCapNY

                          LF...

                          Your points are valid... The only one that could come into question is last one(5). If someone has just shot someone with the weapon still in their hand, it is most likely justified if you shoot them, you are not a cop or military and don't legally have to follow the same protocols. (for instance. I'm NY. If I saw someone pouring gas on my neighbors home, I call the police... I go outside and verify this person is about to light a match, I can shoot him w/ no words at all. A cop or licensed security, must attempt to stop this person from doing anything further before they can shoot.)

                          You are allowed to use deadly force to protect another human being/s (against Rape, and other violent crimes, all it takes is for the criminal to have the means and intent to inflict serious bodily harm) whether they are freind/family or not. You don Not have to, nor should you ever give a 'warning shot'. Any shot you take, must be done with the acknowledgement of what is beyond your target. You may choose to use a strong voice to tell them to drop their weapon, and while doing so you should be completely prepared to shoot the subject.

                            #25.7 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
                            trueblue-1106671

                            Right USMC, I guess you'd better explain this to all those cops in the LA area who always end a car chase with the gunning down of the person fleeing. It is amazing the number of times I have seen this on the evening news or read about it in the paper. Somehow I don't think those cops are going to prison.

                            • 1 vote
                            #25.8 - Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:14 AM EDT
                            Reply
                            trueblue-1106671

                            I agree with you. I am quite intimidated by a show of firearms at a town hall meeting or anywhere else. What does this have to do with health care anyway? Some people just want to bully others. I have lost all respect for the gun movement. I am not alone and I vote.

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#26 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:09 PM EDT
                            SW Missouri Mule

                            I am not afraid, shocked, intimidated, fearful, or any other negative emotion the gun toters might want to use, when I see someone carrying a gun. Of all the articles I've been on, trueblue is the first I've seen say that s/he was. Yet that is what is constantly thrown at those who object to open carry. Most of us are not afraid. They can ramble on about what kind of guns they have, shot, seen, wanted, altered, argued over or shoved. I don't care about all that. We ALL have the right to open carry yet only a few think it necessary to sling it on their back or strap it to their leg. I really want to know why? If not for intimidation or bullying or out of their own fear (which most of us old ladies aren't feeling) then why? I have a number of frying pans but won't be slinging 'um over my shoulder any time soon.

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.1 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:17 PM EDT
                            Tex-988483

                            It is not uncommon in both the deep south or the High West to see folks wearing a rig and sidearm. It is pretty much socially acceptable in certain areas of the country. No bullying or intimidation required, intended or perceived. I've done the same when I have been out in the boonies and come into town for possibles. Not here mind you. Don't think it would fly. In the high west though. Heck, everybody out there has a sheath knife belted as well. Just tools that come in handy.

                            Going to a political rally? I don't think so. Come to think of it, I went to an anti war rally in Montana at the onset of the Iraq thang. Us antis were on one side of the street, the pros on the other. We sorta half assed traded rhetoric for a bit. After awhile everybody got bored and we all crossed into the park and had sammichs and co-colas together. Anyhow, there were a couple from both sides of the fence with rigs. A couple of Peace Makers, a 1911 and a HK. Still, that is quite different from the town hall thang. Personally I think that was a large ol mistake......

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.2 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:40 PM EDT
                            SW Missouri Mule

                            There are parts of the country where it's common. Out here guns in the rack of a pickup are normal. There's a lot of stretches of two lane with nothing but cows or field or woods and cell reception is iffy in the hills and valleys. So a lot of people have a handgun in their vehicle. I wanted a pistol when I first moved here but it was for walking in the woods in case of a snake or other critter that decided to challenge instead of retreat. Still haven't got a pistol and may never.

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.3 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:08 PM EDT
                            Stone5150

                            It is common to see people in Arizona strapped and loaded, but not in downtown Phoenix where the guy with the AR on his back was at in the photo. Some people don't seem to understand where and when it is appropriate to carry a weapon. If I showed up in downtown Phoenix with a katana strapped to my back people would rightly think I was at least a bit off.

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.4 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:58 AM EDT
                            Reply
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